Will the opposition be weakened by Mikhail Khodorkovsky’s refusal to run for its Coordination Council?

Vladimir Kara-Murza with Alexey Kondaurov, Ivan Starikov and Eduard Limonov on Radio Liberty, the “Grani vremeni” programme, 23.09.2012

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Mikhail Khodorkovsky has refused to participate in the opposition’s Coordination Council, having explained this by saying that he could not be of use being in detention. The decision to form a Coordination Committee was adopted at the second “March of Millions” on 12 June. Into the council will enter 30 self-nominees and 15 representatives of parties of the liberals, leftists, and nationalists. The council is going to engage in coordination of protests, information policy, and negotiations with the power. “I am grateful to everyone who considered me worthy of participating in the new structure”, says Khodorkovsky’s statement, “but I have nevertheless rejected the idea of advancing my candidacy for the CC. The main reason for my decision is that in my current situation I can not be useful for the resolution of those practical tasks that the CC is facing.” Leader of The Other Russia Eduard Limonov expressed his respect for the ex-head of YUKOS. “Mikhail Borisovich had enough sense not to get messed up with Navalny’s opposition Coordination Council,” writes Limonov in his blog. “The man is behind bars in a colony far from Moscow, but his mind is strong, and he understood everything correctly. What, is he supposed to be joining in this unnatural dance with them?”

We are talking with former State Duma deputy and former head of the analytical department of the YUKOS concern Alexey Kondaurov, member of the bureau of the federal political council of the Solidarity movement Ivan Starikov, and chairman of the executive committee of The Other Russia party Eduard Limonov about whether or not the opposition will be weakened by Mikhail Khodorkovsky’s refusal to run for its Coordination Committee. Would you consider Mikhail Borisovich’s participation in the opposition’s Coordination Council useful?

Alexey Konadurov: You know, in the situation that he finds himself in, I consider that this is totally unrealistic. And Mikhail Borisovich has explained his decision. In general, it seems a bit strange to me that this idea had come into someone’s head. Fine, they got the idea – but that they proposed this to Mikhail Borisovich and factually put him in not a very easy situation. I consider that Mikhail Borisovich is not in a position in which one can accept and take upon oneself such a kind of decision. Therefore, I repeat, they put him into a bit of an awkward position just with the proposal itself. I think Mikhail Borisovich explained in a dignified manner why he is not going to be participating. Although, I repeat, he is not stingy with his thoughts on account of what Russia ought to be like and he shares them. I think they are going to be exceedingly useful, including for the future Coordination Committee.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: What repels you about the very idea of an opposition Coordination Council?

Eduard Limonov: You see, all of our famous people, faded stars of culture and show business and second-rate writers have decided that they are politicians. And what the hell, what kind of perversion, who gave them the idea for this stupidity? Unconditionally, they are very famous. I can not imagine, for example, some kind of, if all of a sudden all of Hollywood would go and become politicians – this is delirium, a perversion. This, apparently, is everybody’s general political illiteracy being felt. I consider that this is a perversion, a social perversion. The general underdevelopment of the supposedly creative class all full of itself and putting on airs is impossible in any other country. Why have they decided that they have to do politics? Go perform, sing, dance, write your bad books, entertain us, but what are you trying to break into here for. Every bird has its perch; know your perch and sit there.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: But it is not out of these considerations, in my opinion, that Mikhail Borisovich did not go into the Coordination Committee.

Eduard Limonov: You asked me about Mikhail Borisovich; I want to say that he is a person who has been sitting behind bars for 9 years, who has acquired, apparently, all the qualities of a simple, serious and wise fellow. And of course I think it is an insult to propose to him that he go into this chorus line together with Sobchak’s daughter and Dima Bykov, who looks like Dumas fils or something. This is delirium. They all need to be ripped out of there, in my view.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: What do you think, did the advancing of Mikhail Borisovich for the Coordination Committee, even though it was rejected by him, become a recognition of his political merits and proof that he has ceased [sic] into a political figure of Russian scale?

Ivan Starikov: Unconditionally, Eduard Veniaminovich Limonov said that Mikhail Borisovich Khodorkovsky will, on 20 October, in a month, be 9 years that he has been found in detention. He was arrested in the Tolmachevo airport, of my own hometown of Novosibirsk; I remember this day well because I was running for governor and happened to be right in Novosibirsk. In my book I described when the ring came, I was then chairman of a committee in the Federation Council, and it is precisely the senators who vote for a prosecutor, who confirm him in office. And one of the deputy prosecutors asked me to drive up to the Opera Theatre of Novosibirsk; he said that journalists had gathered there. I drove up, they emphatically recommended to me that I say on camera that a thief must sit in jail. I wrote: yes, the fat federal carp happened to be in the right place at the right time. Unconditionally, I said something else, in the words of Igor Guberman: “The power is cooking something up, and knowing how creative it can get the already experienced Jews are getting warm underwear ready”. After this I did not, of course, have any chance of remaining in the Federation Council. Today, unconditionally, Mikhail Borisovich has become an absolute moral leader, being in gaol; in prison he has undergone this here catharsis, a purification procedure. Today there is practically no one left of the people who were glad about his arrest and used to say: right, they threw the book at the oligarch and locked him up. Therefore, if he decides to engage in politics, unconditionally, after he is set free sooner or later, he will become a leader of the united democratic position [sic], of this I have no doubt.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: What do you think, was it worth Mikhail Borisovich’s while to begin the political activity that people await from him upon release already whilst still in detention?

Alexey Konadurov: I think not. 9 years – this is a sufficiently big term, a very big term, and this problem needs to be resolved first, after which one can think about what to engage in, politics or civic activity. Mikhail Borisovich has underscored many times that he does not intend to engage in politics; he is going to engage in the building of a civil society, in civic projects. But I consider that in the position in which he is found today it is countproductive [sic] to engage in politics. He sets forth sufficiently fully and clearly those thoughts that torment him with respect to how Russian political life, Russian society, and the Russian economy are set up. As concerns applied political activity, first, it is impossible to engage in this in those conditions in which he is found, he is a serious person, and he is accustomed to resolving strategic tasks and bringing this all to life. Therefore, I consider that to engage in some kind of political activity in camp is, first, impossible, and second, counterproductive.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: What do you think, has the refusal to release Platon Lebedev next March, as had previously been assumed, become today a warning addressed to Mikhail Borisovich as well?

Alexey Konadurov: I think so; I do not rule out that this is a peculiar kind of warning and a peculiar kind of sign. In this particular sense nothing changes, and the attitude towards Khodorkovsky’s release by the power, it is known, they do not want this under any conditions, neither Lebedev’s nor Khodorkovsky’s. Although, I repeat, both the law and the fact that they are locked up unjustly are on their side – everybody has known this for a long time, this is a general fact. But the power, it is conducting its harsh policy in relation to these two prisoners, and this is not even a sign – this is the routine. In my time I appeared on your broadcast and did not rule out that Ivanov, this was Ivanov’s own initiative to chop these three years and four months off of the term. A decent person, we can not rule out there being decent people among the corps of judges. And so I supposed that he is a decent person, he chopped this term. Most likely this is so, inasmuch as today the cassation instance has mended this decision.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: In your opinion, if not Mikhail Borisovich, then should someone from YUKOS or Open Russia be included in the coordination council, maybe Leonid Nevzlin, Alexander Osovtsov, Svetlana Bakhmina or Anatoly Yermolin?

Alexey Konadurov: As concerns Anatoly Yermolin, I know that Ira Yasina is running; I do not know whether or not Anatoly Yermolin is running. I consider that there should not be any “shoulds” here, that someone from YUKOS “should”; no, everybody who worked at YUKOS should have a personal motive to participate or not to participate and everybody should decide for himself. As concerns the civic position of the people who worked at YUKOS, it is known; it does not depend on whether a Coordination Council is created or is not created, on whether it will function or will not function. Many YUKOS employees have a sufficiently clear civic position and sufficiently clear political preferences, and they do not conceal this and they express and fight for their convictions.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: What do you think, can the opposition’s Coordination Committee organise the dissenters?

Ivan Starikov: Yes, unconditionally, if it is elected and will be associated in the public consciousness as legitimate and representative, then unconditionally it will be organising protest actions sufficiently effectively. The Coordination Council could zero out the registration of the five-hundreder parties, to a significant degree a cunning brainchild of the Kremlin’s, if today it would support in the form of a strategic objective the creation of parties on the basis of those people – and first and foremost out of those people – who will come to vote for the Coordination Council on 20-21 October of next year. This is not voting results doctored up the rooms of the presidium; we see that congresses of dwarf parties have taken place, printed-off and carbon-copy voting results of the regional organisations have been brought and so forth. This is a serious force, which is like a network structure, a mighty political organisation, bound together by discussion of the programmes of the candidates and in the end having adopted some kind of acceptable base programme arrangements in the process of understandings and compromises, could easily become a very serious political force and lay claim to early elections, if there will be [such elections] to the State Duma, or, if this Duma survives to 2016, lay claim to the position of a new ruling party. Now this is exceedingly important. Once again I underscore, this is perhaps the only chance for the current ruling class to avoid the smashing of glass.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: What do you think, does yesterday’s prohibition on the activity on the territory of Russia of USAID, the USA’s committee for international independent cooperation, and the news of the restructuring of Radio Liberty, explain the Kremlin’s desire to squeeze independent structures that could support civil society out of the Russian space?

Alexey Konadurov: Vladimir Alexeyevich, thank you for this question. Unconditionally, yes. I would like, inasmuch as this might be the last airtime in which I am participating, I would like to thank Radio Liberty and the entire collective for the highest professionalism. Radio Liberty worked to the highest world informational standards, and introduced western informational culture into the Russian space. Therefore, I consider that the highest professionalism of the employees, a huge thank you to all of them. Of course they are squeezing [you] out. They are squeezing [you] out, among other reasons, because this highest professionalism allows you to convey information and analysis in a pinpoint manner. And it reaches the mind. This is not an empty talkfest, but very tried and tested information, very precise and brilliant analysis on Liberty. Therefore, of course, I do not doubt that these are links in one chain and that such an information policy of the radio station is regarded by the power as a threat, among other things, it would seem, to the unshakable foundation that they have created, upon which they are enthroned today. Therefore I have no doubts that these are links in one chain, and that they are attempting in this way to weaken the influence on Russian society, on civil society, on people getting reliable information about what is going on in the country and the world.